What is a church planting fellowship? Simply, a number of churches willing to fellowship together for the specific purpose of church planting. This is not an attempt to start another association of churches or create any kind of a schism.
This "fellowship" (for the lack of a better word) would be like the IMD (Interstate Mission Development, or any other ministry) where churches would choose to work together to achieve a specific purpose in finding resources for church planting and developing new workable strategies. Church Planters would be recruited, assessed, trained, mentored and coached in order to successfully establish reproducing churches. This "fellowship" would incorporate other ministries that have a similar interest which could facilitate success in church planting. This ministry would go beyond the "training" of church planters to the actual establishing of new churches: locating strategic areas, recruiting church planters, mobilizing teams to help the new work off the ground, etc.
Presently our association does not have the structure to accommodate deliberate and strategic church planting. As a result, our church planting efforts are very limited and our vision lacking.
There would be a need for a "sponsoring church" that would be responsible for the clear direction of this plan working with other churches that would agree to the standards and the challenge set before them.
If you are interested in learning more about a possible "church planting fellowship" or would like to become a part of an effort like this please contact me and let me know.
David
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46 comments:
You need to read your Bible in Acts 13:1-4. It states that the Holy Spirit is the one who calls the person for the mission field not a church or church planters like you say ("Church Planters would be recruited, assessed, trained, mentored and coached in order to successfully establish reproducing churches.") Mission work is to be God Called not set up like a corporation and run like a franchise like McDonald's. I am really bothered by your posts concerning this new idea you want to start.
This would help w/ the "para church" fears of ministries like Reach America. A direct source for Church Planting would be very powerful. A group of churches assigning board members to oversee the process and assist other churches whom are desiring to reproduce. Good Stuff..... God Stuff
Anonymous,
You missed it entirely. However,
I agree with you when you said "Mission work is to be God Called...". Whoever would agree to work with this concept would be "God called men". We clearly recognize that men don't call men into the ministry, nor any group.
The term "recruit" has to do with finding those men who are called and then working with them in an efficient manner to achieve church planting.
Your argument about running this like a corporation (McDonald's) is interesting; have you considered how many McDonald's there are as opposed to how many of our churches there are!
Brother, don't jump to conclusions before you have all of the information. I will venture to say that you would probably be in favor of something like this if you had an attitude of evaluation instead of condemnation.
Talk to me some more. Let's see if we can't work through the terminology and preconceived ideas that some have.
David
What's the "structure" we're talking about? Would this be similar to a board such as the IMB or NAMB? Are we talking about a top-down system (board approved and sent) or a bottom-up system (God-called and church-sent, both working under the leadership of the Spirit) such as found in the New Testament? We are not the SBC, brother. We are the ABA. I am also deeply concerned about your philosophy of recruiting, assessing, training, mentoring, and coaching. It also sounds much too business-like to me also.
Bro. Smith-
I'm not into quantity in seeing our works in the ABA progress, it's the quality that counts, which is a Biblicaly sound doctrinal church. Anyone can go and start a church, but it takes a person who is truely God Called to get the work going and have progress. There's a problem with people who just want to plant churches everywhere just for the sake of the number, God wants us in it to plant the seed, to go forth and teach the gospel. Our job is to get souls saved. It's not a competition with who has the most churches, the true feeling should be who can lead more to Christ. That is what we are to be doing. I'm concerned with you keeping a running tally of how many new works have started, you should be looking at what we are doing in our works as a whole. I am proud to be a Missionary Baptist and I fully support the ABA and their ideas on missionary work that we already do.
YoungLandmarker,
Brother you are concerned about things that I too am concerned about. But don't rush to conclusions before you have all the facts. Please get all of your information before you make an evaluation.
I know what the sound doctrines of the Word are and believe in God called men being sent out to establish churches by local churches. By the way, the SBC doesn't send out any missionary that has not been authorized and proven by his own local home church. The ABA does the same thing that the SBC does when it comes to sending out missionaries and establishing churches. They (SBC) just do it more efficiently (or as you say: business-like).
Brother, why are you so deeply concerned about the recruiting, training, etc? Do you not realize that this is probably the greatest area of need that exists among our people and one of the main reasons that so few churches/missions are being started? What could possibly be so wrong about this that you are so deeply concerned? Enlighten me.
Anonymous,
Quality churches are healthy churches, and healthy churches are reproducing more churches. Our churches have become quality conscious (maintenance) and are becoming sterile.
I am all for quality, my brother, but what's the point if they are not reproducing themselves. They will ultimately die and disappear; which is already occurring. I am for a healthy balance between quality and quanitity. Quality produces healthy churches! Healthy churches reproduce, multiply, increase, grow,etc.
You said,
"Anyone can go and start a church, but it takes a person who is truely God Called to get the work going and have progress". Not just anyone can go start a church. And if only those men that successfully start churches are truly God called, then we have some serious problems theologically, and practically.
You said,
"There's a problem with people who just want to plant churches everywhere just for the sake of the number, God wants us in it to plant the seed, to go forth and teach the gospel." I don't know of anyone who wants to go start churches for the sake of the number. It's not about the numbers, it's about more churches preaching the word, reaching more people for Christ! Where did you get this idea? Is it because some are promoting the establishing of more churches? Brother if we don't start more churches, and soon, we will see the continued decline of our association and then we won't have any churches for the next generations to come.
You said,
"it's our job to get souls saved." Brother, we are to plant and water. God gives the increase (gives us souls). I am glad that you are for winning souls to Christ (I am too) but brother, the idea is to disciple them and plant churches with them. Wouldn't it be pleasing to God for us to start as many churches as we can? We all know that starting churches is the best form of evangelism that there is, right?
Keeping a running tally on the new works is essential. How will we know that we are accomplishing what God sent us out to do? We all know what happens when we don't keep good records in SS and church, right? People fall through the cracks, attendance declines, workers are not accountable, etc.
Brother, our ABA work is not making progress. We are going backwards. We are losing more works than we are gaining. Is that what you want? I don't. That's why I keep a running tally. No one has ever done it before, and therefore no one really knows what the record is.
I believe our ABA work is a scripturally sound work, but it is not healthy. My prayer and aim is for it to become healthy. I think we have the same goals in mind, it's the journey to get there that will be rough for some.
Join me on the journey brother! It will be rewarding.
If I thought for a moment that what I am promoting is unbiblical, I wouldn't have begun this journey of promoting the planting of more churches.
David
I believe you are dead wrong to make the statement that ABA mission work and SBC mission work is done the same way only they are more efficient. ABA missionaries are sent out by a local sending church and report to that church. SBC missionaries are sent out by the North American Mission Board and report to the board. There is a big difference in the way we conduct our mission work, one scriptural and one is not.
Please if you permit my poor English understanding.
God has wonderful strategy to churchplanting. What we can do is to pray together to know and find and seek it.
It is important to ask God and pray to God and seek the way to how to develope church planting.
"Strategy" is the kink of word sometimes bad meaning. But ,fisherman has simple strategy and know normal easy way to get more fishes. It is not cheat.
But,I feel one thing.It is old time good time is not forgetable and biblical fine. It is not right that new way is always fine.
Apostle paul has no car ,no airplain no good associantion like ABA or Xstream and however.
But he did it.
I feel I would like to be a person to simply help David as Barnaba by my small prayer.
Robbie, you haven't done your homework. You are stating things that you have not verified. You'd better talk to some real people in the SBC and get the real 'facts' about how they operate. Don't listen to second hand information from someone that has an axe to grind and hasn't verified his information. You are repeating unverified information which has been going on far too long within our association. Do you your 'due diligence' and remember that our terminologies and their's is often different, so find out what they mean before you make any statements.
David
Each year, the North American Mission Board (NAMB) approves and appoints hundreds of new missionaries in partnership with the 42 Baptist state conventions and the Canadian National Baptist Convention. NAMB and these partnering conventions work together in recruiting, selecting, jointly funding, training, supporting, and appointing missionaries.
This is not second-hand info, David. If the ABA has some kind of "axe to grind", then perhaps the ABA is not the place you need to be.
our people are so full of fear! If our people have a get together to go soul winning in a county they have to have a sponsoring church. Even though they aren't baptizing or starting churches it has to have a sponsor? Then each group that comes has to come from a local church. Then they have to be working with a church in that area or else its somehow not biblical. Then that church that they are working with has to have a sponsoring church and so on and so on. You can't go knock on a door and tell someone about Jesus unless their are 4 or 5 sometimes 6layers of church authority. Can you say Narcissistic Brides!
The root of many of the objections here is the same as some that use to believe that you don't have to study God's Word and prepare sermons because if you just get up there and start speaking then the Holy Spirit will guide you! The problem is that the Holy Spirit can only bring to your remembrance what you have put in. If you haven't put anything in then there isn't much the Holy Spirit can use. Our people are the same way with church planting.....They want God called men to be lead by the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit can only use what has been put in. Most use a missions method that isn't even in the bible.(so how can the Holy Spirit even use it) The mentality that says there is no need for training, mentoring, strategy, assessing the field all flies in the face of wisdom and says the bible is wrong....There is no wisdom in the multitude of counselors they are saying!
Do you really believe that if our churches are the only true churches that in a world of 6.5 billion people a growth of 10 missions/churches in the US and 20+ in the rest of the world is the result of "being lead of the Holy Spirit". A person who is lead of the Spirit would practice the bible...Proverbs says that a man of wisdom will increase in learning, knowledge, instruction, understanding and wisdom.....Being "lead of the Spirit" has become rhetoric and justification for doing your own thing and remaining unlearned and ignorant in our work!
Despite all the prowess of the SBC approach to church planting, they too are struggling to get new works started, to recruit missionaries, and to get viable churches started. They may be launching more than we are, but that is due to their size (in terms of numbers of churches).
I recently had breakfast with several seasoned SBC pastors in Colorado (It was a visit with my grandfather-in-law and his friends). They expressed the same frustration about getting new works started that we do.
Leland,
You are right, the SBC's frustration is the same as ours. But they are frustrated and doing something about it. By the way, their number of new works in comparison to ours is still far greater in reality and not just proportionately.
One example, among many, is the SBCV of Virginia. Last year their state (500 churches) started over 30 new works. That's just in their state. We have 1200 plus churches and only started 13. Do you get my point?
David
YoungLandmarker,
You are so right! But what you failed to recognize and understand was that each of their church planters/missionaries were recommended and sent with local church approvals and authority. The local church is a very viable part of the process through which each missionary/church planter must be a part of in the SBC. Then the missionary is recommended to the SBC for training, etc.
Friend, my desire is to see our fellowship of churches get over its fears and negative approaches to church planting. Otherwise, we will be nothing but an entry in the church history books of the next generation.
I believe in the local church and every detail of the doctrinal statement of our fellowship. So what is your real problem?
David
David,
I go back to my original comment some time ago. We need to reduce the time that it takes for some one to go from "God is leading me to start a new church" to ON THE FIELD AND DOING IT. What we need is a solid model for what they need to know before going and what to do when they get there and then we need a church to step up and say go.
I think the way missionaries are funded (sponsored)makes some shy away. When a sponsoring church is only responsible for a % of the missionary salary and the missionary has to go around to other churches and "sell" his vision, that would cause some to shy away.
I do NOT have the answers, merely some observations.
Question for thought: While I am all for church planting and starting new churches, why is it that we have a bunch of men (preachers) listed on the ABA site, seeking a church and a bunch of churches without pastors and nothing is being done or said to fix this problem. Also, why is it we have churches (some of them small) with 3 or 4 older preachers that are still capable of preaching and pastoring that could be out doing it or mentoring some of our younger pastors on a personal basis. I know of a few who took over an associate job to help the new pastor( I am NOT badmouthing anyone ... only saying what I heard a respected pastor say: unless God called you to quit then keep on keeping on!
I have finished the race, I have fought the good fight.
John SKipworth
John,
You are absolutely right about a church stepping up and doing something about this situation we have gotten ourselves into. Maybe our church will be one like that. It's my prayer.
In regards to those on the ABA website looking for pastors; some of those churches may be dying and very few men want to take on a dying church that has no vision or willing to change.
I have many opinions about all of this, and they are inconsequential. It won't change anything in a positive way. So, we forge ahead to create a new vision and with a renewed passion for church planting and God calling more men to start churches.
David
I actually like the deputation process, I just wouldn't want to spend 12-18 months doing it. When God called me to Brownwood, I couldn't wait to get there. So, I only did deputation for 6-7 months... and that was mainly due to a lack of available housing and employment in Brownwood. When God finally opened the door, I went.
Deputation is about more than raising funds. It is about encouraging your sister churches and drawing encouragement from them. The mutual encouragement that I experienced on deputation far outweighs the funds raised during the process, even if the churches responded well and we are financially well-supported.
As for teh SBC, the Virginia convention you mentioned is doing well, but things are stalling in Colorado. Plus, there was an issue in South Texas where church planters were starting churches on paper, churches which seemed to disappear after a period of time. Despite all their vision casting and recruiting, they too are spinning their wheels.
Bro. Smith
Are you going to continue keeping a record of new churches and missions started in our work? I hope you do because it brings an element into our mission work that is desperately missing in the ABA.
Its easy to dismiss our ineffectiveness when we aren't faced with reality. Keep on Keeping on brother!
Records are already kept in Texarkana. This blog makes it sound like the ABA keeps track of nothing. I too am discouraged by the posts by Bro. Smith. I would like to know why are you so unhappy with the ABA brother? Why are you so negative with your statements about the ABA? I would rethink what you're trying to do and start praying for a positive solution instead of all the negativity you spew on here about the ABA.
From my understanding the decrease in some of the SBC stats has almost a direct correlation to the increase in Calvinism within the SBC. Stetzer has done some in depth research on it and it is available on his website. There has been a noticeable increase in Pastors who espouse to Calvinism. One of the latest polls showed that 25% of SBC pastors under 40 are calvinist. This was one of the primary factors in the decline of the gospel in England. It also explains a rise in the number of Landmarkers within the SBC at the same time.
Records are not being kept in Texarkana. Ask Randy Cloud if you do not believe me. Bro Randy keeps track of the souls saved that are reported. Nothing else is reported, therefore nothing else is recorded.
Again, my purpose in these blogs is to promote the starting of new churches.
Those who have an issue with my presumed 'negativity' need to reevaluate their own words of 'wisdom' which they have presumed to use in very unkind ways.
I appreciate those who are helping in the process of offering meaningful and positive dialogue to change the course in which we (as a fellowship) are going at the present time.
There is absolutely no comprehensive statistics kept or research done in our work. We are so against doing it because their is a culture of ignorance disguised as independence and masked behind "church autonomy" rhetoric that is keeping us blind to the reality of the condition of our churches. I love the ABA but to turn a blind eye and think everything is ok is not Spirit led.
I am as doctrinally sound as they come, I believe we have made some advances since brother Randy has been the secretary of missions but there is so much more our fellowship can do!
For the anonymous brother that said that records are being kept in Texarkana. If I'm not correct please let me know but I think that none of the 13 new missions or churches that were started in the U.S. last year none of them were through the ABA recommended missionaries. These were all seperate from that group so Bro. Cloud would have had no privilege to that information anyway.
Jonathon Smith
"From my understanding the decrease in some of the SBC stats has almost a direct correlation to the increase in Calvinism within the SBC. Stetzer has done some in depth research on it and it is available on his website. There has been a noticeable increase in Pastors who espouse to Calvinism. One of the latest polls showed that 25% of SBC pastors under 40 are calvinist. This was one of the primary factors in the decline of the gospel in England. It also explains a rise in the number of Landmarkers within the SBC at the same time."
We also need to cease the spewing of venom against Landmarkism also. Landmarkism gets compared to Newlightism, Calvinism, and every other evil "ism." It is what the ABA was founded upon and is clearly taught in the Scriptures.
To repeat myself again:
There are no records kept in Texarkana of any new works, missions or churches being started in the ABA. It makes no difference whether the missonaries are supported by the ABA missions giving or outside of it. There are no records being kept, period.
Not one interstate missionary that was put on the support list in 2007went to start a new work of any kind. They took over existing works. This is according to the office in Texarkana.
Of the 13 new works started last year 2 were from splits and became churches immediatly. Seven were missions and the remaining 4 were started as churches to the best of my knowledge.
Then subtract the number of works that closed their doors by at least 3 (3 that we know of)and that leaves 10 new works for last year.
Brothers, it's time to take a long serious look at this problem. Who will rise up with me to help make a difference?
David
I haven't heard one negative thing stated about Landmark doctrine here or anywhere else younglandmarker.
Bro. Smith in your list of churches that closed did you include Landmark in Perry Oklahoma?
Thanks for the info on Landmark in Perry OK. I did not know about it.
That's very unfortunate. I will add it to the list for this year.
David
Well, I wonder who would like more information about joining a "Church Planting Fellowship"? I've read a lot of discussion. Now it is time to see who is interested enough to say "let's see some details on how this will work?"
David
Please don't take this as an attack on your character or ideals, I just don't see what problem this solves.
Church planter training is already available through Reach America and Xstream Global Missions, vision casting is already done through MAcedonian Missions Seminars and some is done at associational meetings. I would be open to missions seminars being held in conjunction with associational meetings, but that's a whole other idea.
Financial provisions are already covered by God through supporting churches and associational support. Encouragement is extremely available at the early phases of Mission: Brownwood, but I know in a few years that will change.
Data on potential mission fields could be collected and shared, as well as statistics on how many churches are being started or closing, this could be a way to spur churches to action, but the churches who are not aware of what is going on won't likely be joining your fellowship.
So, I think a good approach here would be identifying the specific problem on why more church planting is not taking place, then setting up a strategy to address the problem.
Bro. Leland
This is just my take on it and I am by no means an expert.
A Church planting fellowship may be need for no other reason than to encourage and give blessing to different methods of church planting.
One reason why we are not seeing more churches started is because of our method that has been established to do so is expensive, burdensome, time consuming and distracting.
Expensive- to have a church with a building and land and a congregation that can support such facilities in a non-rural setting is very expensive. At Sublett Road in Arlington we have sponsored the mission in McKinney. We have been fortunate to receive TMD and IMD a total of 4 times. We bought some land at 220,000 that is now worth 800,000. We have built a million dollar facility and the mission is running about 60people. AFter almost 8 years we have 60 people, 600,000 in debt but a nice building and land. In our work this is considered a success. It may be 4 to 5 years before this work is still strong enough to organize.
....our missionary would tell you he is glad to do the work but he has sacrificed more than you could ever imagine. He basically took the load of building the building on his own shoulders. He became Noah in a sense but in so doing the works growth suffered during that 2 year period because he was focused on building a building and not the church.
If this is the model of success and how it should be done this is why we are seeing a woeful number of churches started in our work. Most sponsoring churches are not as strong as Sublett Road and don't have the vision to stay with something that would be this expensive.
Other models and methods of doing ministry are not accepted in our work and looked at as being "liberal" or "unscriptural" because they are different in many ways or don't focus on land and building. A perfect example would be Bro. Charlie Ellison....he is an experienced and successful missionary, seasoned in the Lords Work, very doctrinally sound who wants to use a different method in the Houston area that won't be as time consuming and expensive and the state of Texas crucifies the guy. We pray and pray for good solid missionaries to start more churches and when they do we refuse to support them because they want to do it a little different or someone is mad at them from the church they resigned from.
Now if you had a church planting fellowship made of churches who weren't against using new methods to do mission work their would be a freeing and a blessing and possibly an increase in the number of churches being started.
There are some good reasons bro
Jonathon Smith
Jonathan you need to read your BIBLE and see the way we are supposed to do mission work. It is to be church led not by committee we are not the Southern Baptist Convention, I wish you and your father could understand that and stop trying to do things that are not biblical or scriptual sound doctrinaly.
So let me get this straight you want to plant churches for the sake of saying we have a lot of churches out there. They don't have a building, or a pastor that will stay and continue the work, they are more than likely not grounded in what we believe because that takes time and work. Brother how do you think that will ever work? We may be able to start churches but if they are not grounded and sound doctrinally then what do you have? You have nothing. We are to go and be church sponsored missionaries not by some group that tells me where and when to go. I am led by God to go and start a missionary not by some man telling me where to go. I love the fact that the ABA takes the time to help and the sponsoring church can help with a building to have a place of worship to be in the community and have somewhere to go and praise the lord. I'm sorry but renting out a space in a theater like some of the works I've seen without the help of the ABA I don't believe is right. What do you ever build on, where is yout lighthouse in the community to gather and worship and teach and preach from. No the building doesn't make the church but it is "Our" place to serve and praise the LORD. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to start brother but you need to read your Bible and see how the church sponsors the mission not a church planting group like you are trying to start. Don't hinder the work help it but do it in a doctrinal way of what we believe in the ABA or maybe you don't need to be in the ABA.
I have no problem with church planters getting together and encouraging each other. In fact, it's a good idea. I just don't understand the ultimate goal and vision of what Bro. David Smith is proposing.
When I presented Mission: Brownwood on deputation, I presented a plan that would utilize home Bible studies, meetings in non-traditional locations, and an early organizational date. The churches responded well and I am well supported, though as I work in Brownwood, I am finding that the traditional method might actually be a better fit here.
That being said, those wanting to use newer methods are welcome to do so under MBA of TX and ABA missions policies. I have it from both treasurers that a church can organize and remain on associational support (Wills Point comes to mind), though being open and informative about this process is encouraged.
Bro. Ellison's problems at state last year stemmed from accusations that he was taking a significant number from the church he resigned. I don't know if the charges are true or false, and the issue was closed before another member from that church could give us his observations. I don't remember Bro Ellison's methods being called into question on the floor.
I have found the churches of our assocation to be excited about new works and desiring to support them. What tends to get things heated is the insistence on terminology and the insinuation that the traditional method runs contrary to scriptures.
wow!
First of all no one is advocating that anyone let a committee demand where they go to do mission work.
That was out of nowhere!
Secondly, since when does having land and a building and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt insure that a doctrinally sound church will be established...hello?
Thirdly, Bro. Ellisons methods were brought to question....the term church planting was brought to question....home bible studies were brought to question....Promininent men actually stood up and basically said "church planting" was of the devil.....and did anyone ask if the people leaving the church to go with him wanted to go with him? No one was forcing them? Was it proven that Bro. Ellison was recruiting or did those members just want to go? Accusations were made but no proof of recruiting was actually given....It was all fear based accusations. Matter of fact even though Bro. Ellison had a sponsoring church and was a member of that church that recommended him to the state some yahoos actually got up and asked if they had an "arm" extended to them. What ignorance...he had a sponsoring church and was a member of that church.....what was the real problem? The problem was that he is doing things different!
Fifthly....no one ever stated that anyone wants to plant churches to just have more churches! That came out of nowhere. That is a false assumption. However if it is obvious that more churches are not being started because of a man made litmus test such as land and buildings then it needs to be addressed.
Have a great day gents
Jonathon D Smith
Bro. Leland,
do you consider yourself non-traditional really?
do you have a multi-cultural congregation?
do you have instruments for worship other than a piano and organ?
do you wear a shirt and tie on sunday morning worship?
aren't you trying to by an old church building?
how many are you running before you started looking at buying land and a building?
By your own statement you suggested that traditional worked better for you. So that would imply that you are a traditional mission using the traditional mission methodology? I assume that traditional would work better for you since you are in a small rural town in West Texas. Comparing your situation with what Bro. Ellison went through and saying you are doing it and why can't he is comparing starfish to elephants.
Yes our brethren are ok with you but it is because you are doing a traditional mission with little bits of modernity here and there.
May the Lord bless your work greatly!
The church planting questions were aimed at Tom LeBreton, the pastor of the sponsoring church of Mario Gamez... not Bro. Ellison. Much of LeBreton's problems on the floor were the result of some of his actions in that particular local association.
I never insinuated that Bro. Ellison should do his work the way I am, nor am I saying we should all do it my way. I am simply saying there are allowances in the current missions policy that would allow someone to do the newer church planting methods without having to start a completely different fellowship.
If you'll be honest with yourself, Bro. Ellison would have faced heat on the floor even if he were presenting a traditional approach. The charges levelled against him were personal by nature.
This discussion is about to become counter-productive for me... so I'll bow out now. If you guys want to go ahead and start a new fellowship, go ahead. I am not sure what you'll accomplish that the state and national associations are not already accomplishing. The questions (a) why aren't more works being started? and (b) how will this new fellowship address those problems? still has not been answered for me. I know, the new fellowship will offer coaching, research, training, recruitment and funding, the services already being offered through our associations and Reach America. So I still don't see the need... but you guys go ahead, you won't cause me to lose any sleep.
Leland,
Thanks so much for your contributions. You have given much food for thought.
Again, we are not forming another fellowship, but developing a much needed ministry within our 'fellowship'.
I'm sure over time you will see the need for what we are talking about.
It is up to the Lord whether this takes place, not me.
David
Just so you will know Bro. Leland
I don't have anything against you personally we just disagree.
Yes the current MBA of texas mission policy is not against doing non-traditional methods of church planting but that is like saying a small rural church isn't against new fangled ideas because the doctrinal statement isn't against it. It's not what is written it's what is unwritten that is the majority of the problem. The attitudes toward anything new even when it is sound doctrinally.
For the record the same question (concerning an extended arm)that was asked of Bro. Lebreton was asked (actually yelled from the floor) and Bro. Kuykendall answered it as he headed up to the microphone....I remember it distinctly.
In Christ,
Jonathon Smith
Jonathan,
We both argue, debate and discuss passionately, it's who we are. No problems here.
As for last year's state meeting, I was not pleased in what went on, or how it turned out. I don't remember the question being yelled out, and I might not have heard it, but it doesn't matter now. Last year's state meeting was a fiasco, with every missionary being faced with pointless questions that were mostly the espousing of an opinion. Bro. Gardner was hounded about organized churches going after missions funds despite the fact his mission is not an organized church... and so on and so on. Craig Rogers should have been a quick vote of approval, he's done a good work, but even his approval process was laborious. The whole thing was a dissappointment. Last year, any missionary could've had trouble regardless of methods. That's my view.
Anyway, my comment about not losing sleep was not intended as it came across... over the top... I meant that I had no problem with the idea of a new "fellowship" for lack of a better term... I just didn't see the point.
I have no problems with you. Congrats on the excellent CR in WAPA and hope God continues to bless you in your ministry. Who knows... maybe He'll call you to plant a church in DFW.
God Bless you.
Wow!
Most of the anonymous comments are rediculous and seem to come from uninformed individuals. Especially the ones that attack you, Bro. David, calling your challenges and ideas negative! Ha!!!
Let me add (based on what someone said), today's landmarkism and way of missions is not in the Bible!!! To the person that made this ignorant statement, YOU need to read your BIBLE! Do you have the right one?
Amen Brother, keep challenging!
I really, really hope no lost people stumble across these comments (unless they also happen to be the authors of some of the comments).
They shall know us by our love?
"[Father, I pray] that they all may be ABA; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be the ABA in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
- Jesus (John 17:21)
Well, I didn't think it would happen, but it did. There is one blogger that has left his comments once too often. His comments have been very rude and unnecessary. So, anonymous (whoever you are)I'm sorry you didn't follow my suggestion. I would have loved for you to continue with our back and forth conversation, but you abused your privilege.
Call me what you will. God knows my heart.
David
Every time a missionary goes out on designated funds (not recommended by the ABA) and goes from church to church over a period of a year or 2 to raise funds aren't those churches that support that man in reality forming a church planting fellowship within the ABA but yet seperate from it?
What is the harm with just making those fellowships more functional and networking?
Jonathon Smith
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